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Keyless Entry How secure is the Keyless entry/starting system Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   StephenP 

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 09:57 AM

I have been concerned about the security of the Touareg keyless entry system regarding crooks with scanners at the front door. My previous car was a Merc. GLC and double clicking the lock button on the key turned the key off, the Touareg key did not do this.

I read recently that the Audi Q7 key fob turns itself off if it is not moved and I was wondering, although I have never seen it mentioned anywhere, whether the Touareg key fob also has this feature, this would mean that metal tins or Faraday pouches would not be necessary when the keys were left on a hook etc at home.

Experiment:
I placed my key on top of the rear wheel of the car and checked several times that the keyless entry was working. I left the car for just 15 minutes (key sitting on top of the wheel not moving) on returning to the car it would not unlock (Hooray). Pick the key up from the wheel and it worked straight away.

I have tried this several times and I am sure the key is turning itself off. Has anyone seen anything that would confirm this feature?

I am surprised that VW do not shout about this feature as this type of car theft has been so much in the news recently.
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#2 User is offline   Gnits 

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 10:37 AM

Even if this works so, this is most likely related to movement/shaking. Meaning this is only useful when you're home, and you take your keys out of your pocket and put them onto a table or drawer - and even then, only after a while. But is utterly useless when you've parked your car in a mall lot and the crooks sneak up on you while you're shopping or something, because then they will still be able to open and even start your car. Even possibly in movie theaters and such, where you still have at least some movement in a while.
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#3 User is offline   Cass 

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Posted 13 May 2020 - 11:23 AM

I always use a Faraday pouch and take it with me when I’m out. Given that thieves are ingenious, it wouldn’t take long for someone to manufacture a device to wake a key up or simply steal it within the first 5 mins :mellow:
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#4 User is offline   StephenP 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 11:09 AM

Well!! it is always encouraging, after joining a new forum, to have one of your first posts met with an amazing barrage of negativity and a clear attempt to rubbish my findings regardless of it's merits.

Discussing this with a friend last night he commented that the day they make an electronic device that can cause movement in an inanimate object from a distance he would get one for his girlfriend.
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#5 User is offline   Black Grouse 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 11:25 AM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well!! it is always encouraging, after joining a new forum, to have one of your first posts met with an amazing barrage of negativity and a clear attempt to rubbish my findings regardless of it's merits.

Discussing this with a friend last night he commented that the day they make an electronic device that can cause movement in an inanimate object from a distance he would get one for his girlfriend.


Most people have one of several fixed views on keyless entry - 1) too dangerous so don't specify it - 2) dangerous so use a pouch, aka Faraday Cage - 3) so convenient, ignore the risk.

Maybe VW don't publicise the feature because the no-gooders would soon find a way round it.
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#6 User is offline   ColinT 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 02:29 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well!! it is always encouraging, after joining a new forum, to have one of your first posts met with an amazing barrage of negativity and a clear attempt to rubbish my findings regardless of it's merits.

Discussing this with a friend last night he commented that the day they make an electronic device that can cause movement in an inanimate object from a distance he would get one for his girlfriend.


Nice reply lol
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#7 User is offline   Jaycee531 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 03:52 PM

We already hane such an item
It’s an electronic sign in any shop window which says
SALE
Can also cause corresponding movement in a partners bank account .

#8 User is offline   NoobyT 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 05:26 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well!! it is always encouraging, after joining a new forum, to have one of your first posts met with an amazing barrage of negativity and a clear attempt to rubbish my findings regardless of it's merits.

Discussing this with a friend last night he commented that the day they make an electronic device that can cause movement in an inanimate object from a distance he would get one for his girlfriend.


Eh?

You had two perfectly good, polite replies and you consider that's "a barrage of negativity"?
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VW Touareg models are as follows:
Generation 1: T1 is model 7LA and the facelift T2 is model 7L6
Generation 2: T3 is model 7P5 and the facelift T4 is model 7P6
Generation 3: T5 is model CR7

Models, engines, build years, etcetera - all essential reading - is here:

http://en.wikipedia....kswagen_Touareg

The world's most comprehensive guide to buying a used VW Touareg that could save you money [even more essential reading!] is here:

http://www.mytreg.co...at-to-look-for/


FYI: Porsche Cayenne 955 = T1, 957 = T2, 958.1 = T3 and 958.2 = T4

#9 User is offline   Klewy 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 07:05 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well!! it is always encouraging, after joining a new forum, to have one of your first posts met with an amazing barrage of negativity and a clear attempt to rubbish my findings regardless of it's merits.

Discussing this with a friend last night he commented that the day they make an electronic device that can cause movement in an inanimate object from a distance he would get one for his girlfriend.


Wow, sensitive or what!!
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#10 User is offline   StephenP 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 07:54 PM

View PostNoobyT, on 14 May 2020 - 05:26 PM, said:

Eh?

You had two perfectly good, polite replies and you consider that's "a barrage of negativity"?


Polite yes but containing contrived scenarios to rubbish the benefits of a feature which I had never heard of and which massively improves the security of the keyless entry system.

Of course it only works when you are at home and have put your keys down But I have never heard any news stories anywhere where crooks have followed owners from a car park with the required radio equipment to tune in to the key fob and unlock/start your keyless entry car...... Have You??

Theft by scanner is, as far as I have ever seen, achieved by two crooks in the dead of night one at your front door and one at the car, they use very sensitive radio equipment to search for the very weak signal from your key fob and boost it back to the car where crook # 2 opens the car and starts the engine. If the key fob turns itself Off after 15 minutes of being placed on a surface/hook then the crooks have got to work extremely quickly and would have had to have been waiting for you OR followed you home, and then risked hovering at your front door to tune in to the key fob while you are still active inside the house.

"Crooks will probably find a way to electronically activate the motion sensor on your key fob"!! Really!!

So yes... Negativity
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#11 User is offline   StephenP 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 08:18 PM

View PostKlewy, on 14 May 2020 - 07:05 PM, said:

Wow, sensitive or what!!


Sensitive? When the question asked is ignored in favour of negative comments (I refer you to my last reply) I should be happy?? .

You may recall, the intention of, and the question within, my original post was to find out if this turning off feature is a genuine and intended (by VW) function or whether I am seeing some other effect in my experiment.

I don't really care what people think of the feature or the keyless entry system in general. I am trying to find out if the key fobs do actually turn themselves off when not moved.

You never know if I ever get the question answered Gen3 Touareg owners with keyless entry may sleep better in their beds knowing their key fobs are turned off
My Car: 2020 286 SEL Tech, White with Grigio interior, Sunroof, Air suspension, Folding Tow Ball, Head up display

#12 User is offline   Klewy 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 08:39 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 08:18 PM, said:

Sensitive? When the question asked is ignored in favour of negative comments (I refer you to my last reply) I should be happy?? .

You may recall, the intention of, and the question within, my original post was to find out if this turning off feature is a genuine and intended (by VW) function or whether I am seeing some other effect in my experiment.

I don't really care what people think of the feature or the keyless entry system in general. I am trying to find out if the key fobs do actually turn themselves off when not moved.

You never know if I ever get the question answered Gen3 Touareg owners with keyless entry may sleep better in their beds knowing their key fobs are turned off


If you do get the question answered then some treg owners might sleep better in their beds however with the prevalence of keyless entry car thefts, plus the fact there's no mention of keys turning themselves off within any VW literature, I feel the majority of owners would want to be sure they reduce the risks and use something like a faraday pouch.

As you believe your experiments show the key turns off when not moved for a period of time then it's your decision whether or not you use some additional safeguarding for your keys. Personally when it comes to minimising the chance of theft of my vehicle I will go with something I know works, faraday pouch, and not trust my vehicle security on an experiment and a hope someone on a forum says that keys turn themselves off.
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#13 User is offline   Gnits 

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Posted 14 May 2020 - 08:58 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 07:54 PM, said:

Polite yes but containing contrived scenarios to rubbish the benefits of a feature which I had never heard of and which massively improves the security of the keyless entry system.

Of course it only works when you are at home and have put your keys down But I have never heard any news stories anywhere where crooks have followed owners from a car park with the required radio equipment to tune in to the key fob and unlock/start your keyless entry car...... Have You??


https://www.youtube....h?v=Z-JfFjEaOag
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#14 User is offline   Rich 

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 08:49 AM

I wasn’t aware of this, I do use a faraday pouch having had a keyless entry a Fiesta taken from a hotel car park a few years ago but this does give a bit more peace of mind for the times I forget to take the pouch away anywhere. I do love the keyless feature so certainly would always specify it but also security needs improving on these systems generally.
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#15 User is offline   alstalda 

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 12:03 PM

After reading your post I thought what you found was quite interesting, unfortunately I tried this on on my 2016 touareg and leaving the key motionless near the car for up to 30mins had no effect at all and the doors opened/locked just the same! It's a feature worth being aware of but for the likes of myself with a slightly older Touareg I'm going to have to rely on my Faraday pouch. I wonder how many car insurance companies will will be receiving claims ".....well I was conducting an experiment and just left the key on top of the back wheel and when I came out the car was gone!" :lol:
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#16 User is offline   Cass 

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 01:46 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 11:09 AM, said:

Well!! it is always encouraging, after joining a new forum, to have one of your first posts met with an amazing barrage of negativity and a clear attempt to rubbish my findings regardless of it's merits.

I think you need to keep a sense of perspective here.

Your post may well be valid and correct but the comments you refer to, one of which was mine, were not submitted in the manner you describe.

You are one of only a few members to own the latest version of the Touareg and much of the technology is new and does not apply to older models.

With keyless systems being targeted by thieves and being prominently publicised to educate owners to take precautions, it’s clear that manufacturers need to take steps to make their vehicles more secure. Your findings may be correct and possibly other members/owners of the latest version, or indeed VW themselves, may be able to confirm this.

In the meantime, it is sensible and recommended that owners of vehicles with keyless systems take precautions to prevent their cars from being stolen.
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#17 User is offline   NoobyT 

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 05:02 PM

View PostStephenP, on 14 May 2020 - 07:54 PM, said:

Polite yes but containing contrived scenarios to rubbish the benefits of a feature which I had never heard of and which massively improves the security of the keyless entry system.

Of course it only works when you are at home and have put your keys down But I have never heard any news stories anywhere where crooks have followed owners from a car park with the required radio equipment to tune in to the key fob and unlock/start your keyless entry car...... Have You??

Theft by scanner is, as far as I have ever seen, achieved by two crooks in the dead of night one at your front door and one at the car, they use very sensitive radio equipment to search for the very weak signal from your key fob and boost it back to the car where crook # 2 opens the car and starts the engine. If the key fob turns itself Off after 15 minutes of being placed on a surface/hook then the crooks have got to work extremely quickly and would have had to have been waiting for you OR followed you home, and then risked hovering at your front door to tune in to the key fob while you are still active inside the house.

"Crooks will probably find a way to electronically activate the motion sensor on your key fob"!! Really!!

So yes... Negativity


Oh dear (and I only read the last line by the way).
Tip! Search this forum using Google or Bing with [site:www.mytreg.com word word word ]

VW Touareg models are as follows:
Generation 1: T1 is model 7LA and the facelift T2 is model 7L6
Generation 2: T3 is model 7P5 and the facelift T4 is model 7P6
Generation 3: T5 is model CR7

Models, engines, build years, etcetera - all essential reading - is here:

http://en.wikipedia....kswagen_Touareg

The world's most comprehensive guide to buying a used VW Touareg that could save you money [even more essential reading!] is here:

http://www.mytreg.co...at-to-look-for/


FYI: Porsche Cayenne 955 = T1, 957 = T2, 958.1 = T3 and 958.2 = T4

#18 User is offline   Cass 

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Posted 15 May 2020 - 11:15 PM

Recent article (Auto Express 07/05/20) on keyless confirms that various manufacturers are working on updates to prevent or minimise thefts. They quote a German motoring organisation reporting that out of 237 keyless models tested, only 3 were able to completely fend off an attack.

Several tips are published to enhance your key security and make it more difficult for the thief to get away with your car.

https://www.autoexpr...d-keyless-theft
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#19 User is offline   DaveC 

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 03:45 PM

I too have a new series Touareg and can confirm mine works exactly the same when I replicate the same test.
The potential security risk had bothered me as the car is parked on the drive and the faff of putting the keys away in a tin box each time I came home became a pain.
I had disabled the feature and reverted to using the buttons on the fob like I have done for 20+ years for peace of mind.
Many thanks to the OP, I’m sure someone will have a more peaceful sleep knowing this.
I might even turn keyless entry back on!
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#20 User is offline   Cass 

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Posted 17 May 2020 - 10:23 PM

It might be worth contacting your dealer and/or VW to verify what is happening here.

Clearly the sales staff did not tell you about this feature when you bought it and if I owned a new Touareg, I’d want to know exactly what the key security actually does and more importantly, what it doesn’t.

I wouldn’t give up on using extra security either and remember, this site can be accessed by non-members as well as members, so specific comments about your own individual security should be avoided.
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