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Serviced 2.5 TDi and now misfires Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 05:08 PM

Hi

I did a filter service on my 2004 Touareg 2.5 TDi R5 auto this weekend. Its done just over 150K and was due. I replaced the oil filter, oil (5W/30), air filter and fuel filter. When fitting the fuel filter, I filled it with new diesel in the VF pipe to ensure it was primed and had minimal chance of airlocks. I made sure all the pipework went back exactly as the old filter was removed. The car started straight up and idled well. I took it for a short run and it performed excellently so I thought 'job done'.

I drove it to work the following day and got there fine, including a few short trips around site, without any problems. However on the way home, the car started to misfire and lack power. So my question is, after 25 miles of trouble free driving, what could have gone wrong?

My theory is the new filter had debris in it and despite being 'new', has now blocked one or two injectors. To verify, I don't have a laptop diagnostic tool, and even if I did, would that show a blocked injector or just if the solenoid on the injector was functioning? If I pulled the electrical connections to the injectors one by one, would I be able to have the same effect of pulling spark plug leads on a petrol engine to see if there was noticeable engine differences to pinpoint the specific injector?

I would be keen to know if the injectors can be cleaned or unblocked as the price of a new one is £500 from VW and £100 or so for recon or second hand. And if anyone has done this before, is there a write up or tutorial?

Its ironic that changing the filters to prolong the life of the car may well be the downfall that gets it scrapped!

Martin.

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#2 User is offline   Gnits 

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 06:35 PM

You need to get a proper VW-specific diagnostic tool, like VCDS or OBDeleven, and start scanning for codes and look into measurement values. Without those all you can do is play guesswork and do the part replacement lottery, which rarely plays out.

With VCDS you'll be able to check on total injection amount and idle stabilization deviations, which should be pretty telling if any of the injectors are blocked. However, just by what you said I'd not supsect the injectors just yet (or at all), as "misfires" could be caused a million of other things, which are a ton more likely than some debris from a brand new fuel clogging your injectors. Which is also highly unlikely because on the R5 the fuel filter is a self-contained sealed unit, not just an insert.

Anyway, do the due diligence with the code scanning first, and let's go from there. You could also record and a post a video of how your engine is running and what noise it's making, because that could be also very telling under some circumstances.
Touareg R5 TDI (2008)

#3 User is offline   johnb80 

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 07:07 PM

It sounds like you may have used the wrong oil, the 2.5 is critical and it must be the correct VW spec oil. With the wrong oil you are doing major engine damage, if it's not the correct VW spec change it immediately.
Now a proud owner of a 2012 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover having sold my T1, 2006, 3.0 V6 Altitude which has been pretty much trouble free for 4 years running on MORRISONS fuel which is the best choice for all Touaregs.
P.S. Watch the mods here, they do dark and devious things when youre not looking LOL

#4 User is offline   Gnits 

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 07:25 PM

View Postjohnb80, on 18 February 2020 - 07:07 PM, said:

It sounds like you may have used the wrong oil, the 2.5 is critical and it must be the correct VW spec oil. With the wrong oil you are doing major engine damage, if it's not the correct VW spec change it immediately.

He might have not used the correct oil, but I don't think that putting the wrong oil (or at least an oil that's as much wrong as any 5W30 oil can be in this situation) into the engine can't just cause it to misfire in 25 miles, if it had no such problems prior to the change.
Touareg R5 TDI (2008)

#5 User is offline   johnb80 

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Posted 18 February 2020 - 08:59 PM

View PostGnits, on 18 February 2020 - 07:25 PM, said:

He might have not used the correct oil, but I don't think that putting the wrong oil (or at least an oil that's as much wrong as any 5W30 oil can be in this situation) into the engine can't just cause it to misfire in 25 miles, if it had no such problems prior to the change.


You may be right, my only thoughts were if it was jacking a valve up i.e. not closing fully causing compression loss. I had a similar situation with a 1.9 PD Galaxy when a friend did an oil change on it and in no time at all it was running rough. Changing the oil again for the correct PD oil cured the issues 100%.
Now a proud owner of a 2012 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover having sold my T1, 2006, 3.0 V6 Altitude which has been pretty much trouble free for 4 years running on MORRISONS fuel which is the best choice for all Touaregs.
P.S. Watch the mods here, they do dark and devious things when youre not looking LOL

#6 User is offline   chaser 

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 03:57 PM

In situations like this I always check and double check each thing that I've touched.
Check that the filter connections correctly located and are not likely to be drawing in air. Also check the fuel temperature sensor connector if you have disturbed that.
Chaser...

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Current... Touareg R-Line Plus 3.0 V6 TDI 262PS 8-Speed Auto Tiptronic. Area View, Canyon Grey Metallic, 21" Mallory Alloys, Dynamic CDC Air Suspension, 14way Electric R-Line Branded Two Tone Sports Seats in Nappa Leather, Memory Pack, Factory Tow Pack, Ambient Light Pack etc, etc,

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#7 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 04:57 PM

Hi chaps

Thanks for all your comments, all duly noted.

My plan today was to get the car in the garage and retrace my steps as suggested. Lo and behold, it is now working correctly, and the only thing I have done is leave it overnight. I did double check all connections I had disturbed and all looked to be good. My plan now is to put some diesel injector cleaner through it as a precaution and see how it goes on a longer run.

Hopefully this will be the last entry on this thread!

Martin.

#8 User is offline   johnb80 

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 06:11 PM

Thats good news that it's running well. Did the oil you used have VW 506.01 in it's spec? If it didnt you really do need to change it before driving, excessive wear results on the camshafts if the oil doesnt meet that spec.

J
Now a proud owner of a 2012 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover having sold my T1, 2006, 3.0 V6 Altitude which has been pretty much trouble free for 4 years running on MORRISONS fuel which is the best choice for all Touaregs.
P.S. Watch the mods here, they do dark and devious things when youre not looking LOL

#9 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 07:17 PM

Hi J

The oil I used was MANNOL ENERGY COMBI LL Engine Oil 5W-30. It covers VW specs 506.01 amongst many others according to its spec sheet. I have used this for the last three oil changes I have done without any problems that I know of, and up until its little hiccup yesterday, has run well.

Martin

#10 User is offline   johnb80 

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 08:46 PM

View Posthurtlocker66, on 19 February 2020 - 07:17 PM, said:

Hi J

The oil I used was MANNOL ENERGY COMBI LL Engine Oil 5W-30. It covers VW specs 506.01 amongst many others according to its spec sheet. I have used this for the last three oil changes I have done without any problems that I know of, and up until its little hiccup yesterday, has run well.

Martin


Thats all good then, I only commented because you said you used 5w30 etc.

Hope all goes well.
Now a proud owner of a 2012 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover having sold my T1, 2006, 3.0 V6 Altitude which has been pretty much trouble free for 4 years running on MORRISONS fuel which is the best choice for all Touaregs.
P.S. Watch the mods here, they do dark and devious things when youre not looking LOL

#11 User is offline   Gnits 

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Posted 19 February 2020 - 09:46 PM

View Posthurtlocker66, on 19 February 2020 - 07:17 PM, said:

The oil I used was MANNOL ENERGY COMBI LL Engine Oil 5W-30. It covers VW specs 506.01 amongst many others according to its spec sheet.

That's the wrong oil then. Any oil that claims to meet a lot of other specs besides 506 (especially if 507 is amongst them) is not the correct oil and has a misleading labeling. 506.01 is a specialty product, and any oil that truly meets 506.01 can not possibly meet 507 at the same time. Also, there's no officially approved 506.01 oil to my knowledge that isn't 0W-30 - so, a 5W-30 viscosity should also raise a red flag.

Btw the fact that this particular oil is not suited for your R5 is also noted on the respective Mannol product page, albeit with very small print, where it says: "Except V10 PDU engines in Phaeton until February 2006 and R5 PDU engines in Touareg until December 2006".

I'd personally recommend Liqui-Moly Synthoil Longtime 0W-30, which is a very good oil and definitely the appropriate one for your engine. But there are also other products out there that would be also fine. Just keep the things mentioned above (about meeting several specs and the viscosity) in mind when looking for one!
Touareg R5 TDI (2008)

#12 User is offline   Cass 

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Posted 20 February 2020 - 01:18 AM

Except VW R5 engines up to 2006 :blink:

https://mannol.de/en...bi%20LL%205W-30
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#13 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 02:47 PM

Hi chaps

An update to this post...

A couple of days after the touareg 'fixed' itself, it promptly 'unfixed' itself with the same 'missing' sound coming from the engine. I took on board all what was said in the reply posts and retraced my steps again, including dropping the oil again and putting in 506.01 and new filter. (Just a side note here, VW themselves said they don't use 506.01 anymore and put 507 in touaregs!). Unfortunately all to no avail. Then with the corona virus taking over the world and having no way to get the car to VW for diagnosis, the touareg has sat for some weeks. Earlier this week, and having loads of time on my hands, I thought I would start it up and video what I am seeing to see if anyone can shed any light given what they are seeing and hearing.

Any help on how to get the video clip to you to see would help!!

The video shows the car running and the booming/missing sound particularly noticeable by the air filter. What is of note is that the sound can be all but eliminated by moving the valve as shown in the video. Without the means of a full diagnostic, I am still thinking I am looking at an injector or possibly something more catastrophic in the engine or head. Possibly a valve or even a piston.

Anyway, any help from you chaps will be greatly appreciated.

Martin.

#14 User is offline   Gnits 

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 03:27 PM

Upload it to youtube and post a link
Touareg R5 TDI (2008)

#15 User is offline   NoobyT 

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Posted 28 April 2020 - 03:48 PM

VW dealers have often put the wrong oil in the early 5 and 10 cylinder cars and 507 is wrong.

506.01 is the right oil!
Tip! Search this forum using Google or Bing with [site:www.mytreg.com word word word ]

VW Touareg models are as follows:
Generation 1: T1 is model 7LA and the facelift T2 is model 7L6
Generation 2: T3 is model 7P5 and the facelift T4 is model 7P6
Generation 3: T5 is model CR7

Models, engines, build years, etcetera - all essential reading - is here:

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The world's most comprehensive guide to buying a used VW Touareg that could save you money [even more essential reading!] is here:

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FYI: Porsche Cayenne 955 = T1, 957 = T2, 958.1 = T3 and 958.2 = T4

#16 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 01:27 PM

Hi Chaps

Hopefully the link will work.

https://youtu.be/hQy4jPRtaLk

Hopefully somebody has heard or seen this before and can help!

Regards

Martin

#17 User is offline   chaser 

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Posted 29 April 2020 - 04:06 PM

Sounds very much like a camshaft/cam follower fault causing the pulse in the inlet tract. Vcds diagnostic will identify which cylinder. Remove the camshaft cover and inspect the camshaft etc. If camshaft wear looks normal you could swop the injector from another cylinder to check/prove that as a possible cause.
Chaser...

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Current... Touareg R-Line Plus 3.0 V6 TDI 262PS 8-Speed Auto Tiptronic. Area View, Canyon Grey Metallic, 21" Mallory Alloys, Dynamic CDC Air Suspension, 14way Electric R-Line Branded Two Tone Sports Seats in Nappa Leather, Memory Pack, Factory Tow Pack, Ambient Light Pack etc, etc,

Previous... Pure White 2014 Touareg V6
R-Line 3.0Tdi 245ps 8-speed Auto Tiptronic (from new). Factory swivelling tow pack. Fully wired 13pin electrics. 9x20" Pikes Peak alloys. Piano black decorative inlays. Interior ambient light pack. Reversing camera.

Before that... Salt Lake Grey 2006 Touareg 2.5 Tdi SE Sport Auto (from 26k miles)


#18 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 30 April 2020 - 03:05 PM

All

The more I look at this issue, based on the replies and the comments on the youtube video, its looking like a camshaft or follower issue. So further questions are;

1. Is it possible to see the wear on the camshaft or followers simply by removing the rocker cover?
2. If I need to replace the followers, can they be replaced individually or is a complete camshaft and follower kit needed?
3. Has anyone replaced the camshaft and followers whilst the engine is in the car and is there a write up or video for this job?
4. I guess I will need the timing toolkit as well and again, can this be used with the engine in the car?

Initial figures are approx. £375 for the camshaft and follower kit and the timing tool set around £100. If I could do this without removing the engine for under £500 I would definitely give this a try.

Thanks again for your input.

#19 User is offline   hurtlocker66 

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Posted 06 May 2020 - 02:47 PM

Topic update

I removed the rocker cover yesterday and think the cause of my problems is the camshaft and followers. In the two pictures, I can see where the cam lobes have worn and on the followers, the top surface is starting to break up. This seems to be true for most of the lobes and most of the followers.

I am still trying to establish if this job can be done with the engine in-situ. From the videos I have seen, I need to remove the tandem pump as part of the procedure, so question one is, can the tandem pump be removed with the engine in situ? The tech diagram only indicates for three bolts to be removed but it does say the engine has to be removed because of the cramped conditions. Does the tandem pump need to be removed with the engine at TDC?

Second question, I have watched this really informative video on youtube. Its not in English but its very good.

https://www.youtube....h?v=k6H2kZBewW8

I do have a few questions though and hope that someone may be able to help?

At approx 52 minutes, the intermediate gear is installed, which takes up the backlash on the cam gear. I wouldn't anticipate removing the intermediate gear, but would think that the backlash will have to be adjusted when the cam gear is refitted so I would have to do something. Again, space would be a problem but has anyone done this in the engine bay and is the backlash just a 'feel' thing?

At 58:18, he uses a clamp. Is this just to hold the gear in place so he can torque the cam gear bolt to the camshaft?

Then at 1:00:31, he uses another clamp (TI0199) but I can't work out what it is he is doing?

Everything else in the video is very good. I would have to get the torque settings for the various bolts, but hopefully, someone on the site can help with that.

In anticipation, Martin.

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