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T3 towing requires fan upgrade? Dealer says towing anything "will melt engine"

#1 User is offline   Tregless 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:40 AM

Anorther newbie question... Sorry.

About to buy an Approved Used T3 Altitude (245 V6, 61 plate) but we want a towbar fitted so we can attach a bike carrier.

Dealer called yesterday to ask what why we want a towbar, and what will we be towing? I said a bike carrier. He said good, because anything more requires "an upgrade to the fan in the vehicle otherwise you will melt the engine". Fitting a fan upgrade will cost more money obviously (and there has been fun and games negotiating the price over the past week).

Is that true? If I had a towbar fitted elsewhere (realise need for bumper issues etc. hence ordering OEM through VW dealer) would I need to upgrade the fan to avoid "engine melt"????!!!!!

Henley
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#2 User is offline   dailysmoker 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:40 AM

Sounds like absolute rubbish to me.

The fan only cuts in when the engine temp increases beyond a certain level. If whilst towing, the engine gets warmer due to working harder the fan simply cuts in more often.

Name and shame the dealer!

DS
Current car - Porsche Macan Turbo only on here as it is a great forum and they still talk to me!

Previous car - Black 2012 V8TDi Altitude 340 (tweaked). The most proper car to date!
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#3 User is offline   HEHEY 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 08:55 AM

I know that Merc advise a cooling upgrade, and maybe if you were towing 3 tonnes through the Sahara it might be a good idea.
However there are several on here who tow big caravans with T3's and this has never been mentioned before. I pulled over two tons up and down the country with my T2 and the temp gauge never moved beyond mid point.
I agree the dealer is trying to fleece you. Why am I not surprised? Which dealer is it?
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#4 User is offline   filgreen 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:25 AM

Load of nonsense.

Towed many miles in T3.
Dealer is a dick

#5 User is offline   chaser 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:46 AM

Ease up on the dealer, they may well be right. Many Vag cars have cooling system upgrades for towing, usually software changes and additional coolant pumps (v51) that run on with the fans to prevent engine hotspots after engine off . I've found if you check the vehicle PR numbers some cars come with these fitted even though there is no towing equipment fitted??
Perhaps this particular vehicle doesn't have any such additions....
Chaser...

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Current... Touareg R-Line Plus 3.0 V6 TDI 262PS 8-Speed Auto Tiptronic (from new). Area View, Canyon Grey Metallic, 21" Mallory Alloys, Dynamic CDC Air Suspension, Piano black decorative inlays with retrofit black surrounds on dashboard. 4way Electric R-Line Branded Two Tone Sports Seats in Nappa Leather, Memory Pack, Factory Tow Pack, Ambient Light Pack etc, etc,

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#6 User is offline   dailysmoker 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:43 AM

Chaser is no doubt right but I can't believe the cooling capacity is so finely calculated that unless you are towing 3500kg up Pikes Peak the standard set up wouldn't be adequate.

I also like Fil's concise summary of the dealer (right or wrong)!

DS
Current car - Porsche Macan Turbo only on here as it is a great forum and they still talk to me!

Previous car - Black 2012 V8TDi Altitude 340 (tweaked). The most proper car to date!
Metropolitan alloys, pano roof, parking heater, digital TV, 4 zone climate, spare wheel, 12 way Nappa seats, no stop/start function..........................

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#7 User is offline   Leeeeee 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:49 PM

Doesn't it state in the specs it can tow 3.5 tonnes as standard? I may be wrong but I don't recall seeing a small * and size 3 font which points out you require additional cooling capacity at additional cost to perform this. :blink:

I am sure there are 'upgrades' available but I doubt they are required.
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#8 User is offline   Tregless 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:04 PM

Well, we're due to pick it up this T3 Altitude next week, once the towbar has been fitted.

We went back to the dealer today (Citygate in High Wycombe) and was told that this applies to all T3's. I was told that if you specify the towing pack from VW on a new vehicle, you get a higher power fan to keep the engine cool when it iss towing. Standard non-towing equipped T3s only have a normal fan, and if you tow anything with it, it can overheat. (You have to bear in mind guys that I have a naturally slightly gormless face and the words "Gullible Fool" tattooed on my forehead and this has led in the past to people occasionally taking advantage). Retro-fitting the up-rated fan is a £900 additional cost.

Anyway, Citygate have said they will ask me to sign a disclaimer that I won't be towing anything with the towbar I am paying them a grand to fit!!! Just allowing me to use it for bikes (which is actually our intention).

They are fitting the OEM VW towing kit, which is a £700 factory-fit option. Apparently, it is an 8hr job in the workshop because of all the electrics - hence the £300 labour. I went for this option as I had read other comments that fitting aftermarket towbars to Altitudes necessitated permenant holes in bumpers etc.

Decidely underwhelmed at being asked to sign a disclaimer about my engine melting if I actually tow anything with my VW towing pack???

We had quite a time at Citygate today, they got all affronted that we wanted to inspect a vehicle we are buying a second time before signing any paperwork "you've done a test drive what's the problem?"

Henley
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#9 User is offline   HEHEY 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:34 PM

I wouldn't sign a disclaimer stating I would not tow anything with my factory spec Towbar. Id go elsewhere and tell VW to stick their car where the sun don't shine. What do they expect people to do with a Towbar? This stuff grinds my gears no end.
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#10 User is offline   Loz 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostHenleyBranch, on 13 July 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

We went back to the dealer today (Citygate in High Wycombe) and was told that this applies to all T3's. I was told that if you specify the towing pack from VW on a new vehicle, you get a higher power fan to keep the engine cool when it iss towing. Standard non-towing equipped T3s only have a normal fan, and if you tow anything with it, it can overheat. (You have to bear in mind guys that I have a naturally slightly gormless face and the words "Gullible Fool" tattooed on my forehead and this has led in the past to people occasionally taking advantage). Retro-fitting the up-rated fan is a £900 additional cost.
Henley

This is interesting, I have never heard of this unless it is new for the new build in August+ plus it would be on the latest pricelist.

Rather than go back to them and say "The guys on the forum think your taking me for a ride" say "The guys on the UK's largest Touareg forum are really interested in this upgrade for their cars. What is the part number for this upgraded fan?"
Regards Loz

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#11 User is offline   dailysmoker 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:17 PM

Good advice Loz.

I would like to see something in writing confirming all of the implications of adding a towbar.

DS
Current car - Porsche Macan Turbo only on here as it is a great forum and they still talk to me!

Previous car - Black 2012 V8TDi Altitude 340 (tweaked). The most proper car to date!
Metropolitan alloys, pano roof, parking heater, digital TV, 4 zone climate, spare wheel, 12 way Nappa seats, no stop/start function..........................

Previous previous car - Black 2011 V6 TDi Altitude 240. Still a proper car.

Previous previous previous car - Silver 2007 3.0TDi (tweaked). A proper car.


#12 User is offline   Tregless 

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 07:57 PM

Thanks for the sage advice. I have no intention of signing a disclaimer without understanding that this is official from VW. Thoroughly unconvinced currently. And will let you know.

It's a used T3, (Dec 2011) so not a new spec issue.

Despite the middling experience of dealing with the dealers, we hammered out a reasonable deal and am really really looking forward to picking up our first Touareg on Friday!

Henley
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#13 User is offline   Robhar 

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:37 PM

I bought a 2012 Touareg Altitude from a VW dealer in March this year. It was their demonstrator and as part of the deal they gave me a generous allowance for retro fitting a Westfalia detachable towbar and fully wired 13 pin electrics integrated with the car system. At no time did they suggest the cooling system would need upgrading and my experience to date is that the car never feels stressed when towing and has shown no sign of overheating towing a caravan weighing 1600kg. However, whilst researching a new towcar I did find that if you retro fit a towbar to the Audi Q5 with the same engine extra cooling is required.

#14 User is offline   Loz 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 11:03 AM

View PostRobhar, on 14 July 2013 - 09:37 PM, said:

I bought a 2012 Touareg Altitude from a VW dealer in March this year. It was their demonstrator and as part of the deal they gave me a generous allowance for retro fitting a Westfalia detachable towbar and fully wired 13 pin electrics integrated with the car system. At no time did they suggest the cooling system would need upgrading and my experience to date is that the car never feels stressed when towing and has shown no sign of overheating towing a caravan weighing 1600kg. However, whilst researching a new towcar I did find that if you retro fit a towbar to the Audi Q5 with the same engine extra cooling is required.

Hi Robhar, and welcome to myTreg.com

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#15 User is offline   chaser 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:49 PM

Did a little digging so getting back to the original post and vehicle/year....... the parts catalogue clearly shows the different fan and cowling versions, 600W or 850W depending on original build spec, engine and PR codes, ie, for 'vehicles with trailer operation' or 'preparation for trailer operation' and vehicles without same. So I would conclude if this vehicle left the factory with a cooling system for no trailer prep then it has the less powerful set up.

As the usual British climate isn't too much to cope with i'm certain many similar Touaregs are happily towing without the uprated system but that doesn't mean in extreme conditions it isn't necessary for correct operation.......note apart from engine coolant, oil, fuel and AC this same fan has to control ATF temperature also. I'm sure there's no need to panic as we're not all towing 3.5ton trailers but it would appear if buying used and a towbar is required then an original VW fitment has an advantage over a retrofitted one.
Chaser...

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Current... Touareg R-Line Plus 3.0 V6 TDI 262PS 8-Speed Auto Tiptronic (from new). Area View, Canyon Grey Metallic, 21" Mallory Alloys, Dynamic CDC Air Suspension, Piano black decorative inlays with retrofit black surrounds on dashboard. 4way Electric R-Line Branded Two Tone Sports Seats in Nappa Leather, Memory Pack, Factory Tow Pack, Ambient Light Pack etc, etc,

Previous... Pure White 2014 Touareg V6
R-Line 3.0Tdi 245ps 8-speed Auto Tiptronic (from new). Factory swivelling tow pack. Fully wired 13pin electrics. 9x20" Pikes Peak alloys. Piano black decorative inlays. Interior ambient light pack. Reversing camera.

Before that... Salt Lake Grey 2006 Touareg 2.5 Tdi SE Sport Auto (from 26k miles)


#16 User is offline   Ty Rua 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:05 PM

I'm sure you are perfectly right, Chaser, but surely, as someone pointed out, they wouldn't (couldn't?) possibly sell a vehicle with a supposed 3.5 tomnne towing limit anywhere in the world (I suppose) without a warning in the manual about an ugraded fan?
So many buyers, are going to retrofit a towbar, as I did.

#17 User is offline   Smiffy 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:33 PM

View PostMus, on 15 July 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Surely as someone pointed out, they wouldn't (couldn't?) possibly sell a vehicle with a supposed 3.5 tomnne towing limit anywhere in the world (I suppose) without a warinnig in the manual about an ugraded fan? So many are going to retrofit, as I did, a towbar.


Mus - you caused me to go out and fetch my owners manual!!

On page 181 it has a section on "retrofitting a towing bracket";

"VW recommends having the towing bracket retrofitted by a qualified workshop. The cooling system may need to be modified or heat shields may need to be fitted. VW recommends using a VW dealership for this purpose"

So there is a warning, but it is rather well hidden. The manual is littered with orange warning boxes for every little thing (to avoid litigation), but this is just buried in the plain text.

I agree with all the sentiments above that it is crazy for ANY car to be sold with a towing capacity stated, but no obvious mention on the need for upgraded cooling. Unless you're buying a new car you can't always find a car with OE tow bar fitted.

I agree with Chaser that for most of the time, and expecially in our climate, the car will shrug off typical towing duties. But there must be owners who tow heavy duty commercial trailers, and today it's nudging 30 degrees outside, so you'd rather know that you're inside design tolerances, and espcailly in case of a warranty claim!!!!

If it's really true that VW fit a lower spec fan on standard models I think it's a poor show.
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#18 User is offline   Smiffy 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 02:47 PM

Oh - and another thing - the dealer who said that it would "melt you engine" is still a dick.

Rather than explain the facts to you, and show you some written explanation from VW which shows you the truth, he chooses to try and scare you into spending £900 on a new fan.

Even if this is strictly necessary (and I'm still astonished if it is), I would take my business elsewhere as punishment for dickish behaviour.

But perhaps I'm being harsh!?
Current car 2013 Touareg R-Line 245, Canyon Grey, Pikes Peak, Tow bar, Space saver spare
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#19 User is offline   Loz 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:03 PM

View PostSmiffy, on 15 July 2013 - 02:47 PM, said:

Oh - and another thing - the dealer who said that it would "melt you engine" is still a dick.

Rather than explain the facts to you, and show you some written explanation from VW which shows you the truth, he chooses to try and scare you into spending £900 on a new fan.

Even if this is strictly necessary (and I'm still astonished if it is), I would take my business elsewhere as punishment for dickish behaviour.

But perhaps I'm being harsh!?

I'm with you smiffy, Dickish behaviour of the first order.

In the meantime I am going to look on the parts catalogue and see if you can order this is a spare part, out of interest...

Sometime past…
7P0 121 203E 600w Fan for vehicles without trailer preparation

7P6 121 203B 850W Fan for vehicles with trailer preparation

The difference in price is about 50 quid so I don't see how they can charge you a £900 upgrade if you're ordering it as an option on a new vehicle.
But probably covers the parts and labour to sort it as an upgrade to an existing built vehicle.
Regards Loz

VW California T6 MY17 204 DSG 4motion in Blackberry
Vag-Com if anyone in area needs to use it...
(previous)2011 T3 Escape - 2010 Tiguan R-Line 170 - 2010 Golf 170GTD DSG - Landcruiser 78 series(Troopie)
(previous)2009 Golf 140GT DSG - 2007 Shogun Warrior 3.2 SWB - 2001 Discovery 2
(previous)1999 Audi 2.4SE Avant....>>>>>>> way back.. Ford Mk1 Capri

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#20 User is offline   chaser 

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:23 PM

7P6 121 203 B............use your own vehicle details to be sure though.

also check/decode your PR numbers first in case there is any suggestion of preparation

edit.... i see you did it..:D
Chaser...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Current... Touareg R-Line Plus 3.0 V6 TDI 262PS 8-Speed Auto Tiptronic (from new). Area View, Canyon Grey Metallic, 21" Mallory Alloys, Dynamic CDC Air Suspension, Piano black decorative inlays with retrofit black surrounds on dashboard. 4way Electric R-Line Branded Two Tone Sports Seats in Nappa Leather, Memory Pack, Factory Tow Pack, Ambient Light Pack etc, etc,

Previous... Pure White 2014 Touareg V6
R-Line 3.0Tdi 245ps 8-speed Auto Tiptronic (from new). Factory swivelling tow pack. Fully wired 13pin electrics. 9x20" Pikes Peak alloys. Piano black decorative inlays. Interior ambient light pack. Reversing camera.

Before that... Salt Lake Grey 2006 Touareg 2.5 Tdi SE Sport Auto (from 26k miles)


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